Muriel De DINHAM

Other Events:

• _UID: 7C3F96E96FD3420CA2E4E789DE7841E43B68

Notes:

He [Edward Hastinges] married, 1stly, Muriel, daughter of Sir John DE DINHAM, of Hartland, Devon. [Complete Peerage VI:358-60, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]

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Note: PA2, p. 130, states that Muriel is a daughter of John de Dinham by Muriel de Courtenay, but this is shown to be in error by John Ravilious in a post to SGM, 1 Jun 2001:

From: [email protected] ([email protected])
Subject: Dinham/Courtenay Correction (was: Grenvilles of Devon Pt. 2)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2001-06-01 22:29:26 PST

Friday, 1 June, 2001

Hello Brad, Louise, Doug et al.,

The prior discussion of the documentation re: the Dinham relationship and inheritance from Hugh de Courtenay of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon & c. caused me to review the relationship between these generations of the Dinham and Courtenay families and the marriage of Muriel de Dinham to Sir Edward Hastings, de jure 8th Lord Hastings (d. 6 Jan 1437/38).

The relationship as set forth in Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed. (pp. 130-131) is as follows:

..1. Sir John de Dinham, 4th Lord Dinham (murdered 7 Jan 1382/83), m. Muriel de Courtenay, sister and coheiress (in her issue) of Hugh de Courtenay, above.

..2. Muriel de Dinham, d. after 1412, m. Sir Edward Hastings, as above.

..3. John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings, d. 9 Apr 1477, m. Anne Morley

In reviewing this line, the following conflicting issues were noted:

A. Sir John de Dinham (#1 above) was born ca. 1317/18 [CP Vol. IV, p. 373], and was married to Muriel de Courtenay sometime before 1360: as indicated in the latest 'Grenvilles of Devon' post, the Inquisition p.m. for Hugh de Courtenay (1369) clearly shows the son of Sir John de Dinham and Muriel de Courtenay was then approx. 10 years of age.

B. It would be logical to assume that most siblings of the younger John de Dinham (b. ca. 1359/60) would be born fairly soon before or after his birthdate. At any rate, no sibling would have been born any later than 12 Aug 1369: on that date the Inq.p.m. for Hugh de Courtenay makes it clear that the younger John de Dinham was his heir (coheir actually), making it clear that his mother Muriel de Courtenay was already deceased.

C. Sir Edward de Hastings (#2 above) was born in 1382, and baptised on 21 May 1382 [CP Vol VI, p. 358]. His son and heir, John Hastings, was born sometime before 1412, as he was aged '26 and more' at his father's death on 6 Jan 1437/38 [CP Vol VI, pp. 359-360]. Given the marital customs and infant mortality of the age, it is safe to assume a marriage being transacted and consummated sometime in 1397 or later, with a 'safe' approximate date of ca. 1402, and also safe to assume that the bride would be the same age as, or more likely slightly younger than, the groom. This would indicate a birth date for Muriel de Dinham, wife of Sir Edward de Hastings, sometime between 1381 and 1391, and certainly no later than 1399 given the birth date of her son (before 1412, as above).

It is clear from the above that there is a chronological problem for the same Muriel de Dinham to be both the daughter of Sir John de Dinham (#1 above) and the wife of Sir Edward de Hastings (#2 above). The dates in question either would require that Sir Edward de Hastings married a woman some 13 years or more his senior, or that she was in fact not the daughter of Sir John de Dinham who died in 1382/83.

Given the naming patterns of the period, with an older child frequently being named for a grandparent before the name of a parent would be used, and the chronological issues indicated above, I find the one answer to be that Muriel de Dinham, wife of Sir Edward de Hastings must be the daughter of John de Dinham (b. 1359/60) and not his sister as indicated in PA above. The relevant chronology of the life of this John de Dinham is as follows (from CP Vol IV, pp. 374-377):

A. Born 1359/60, as noted above.
B. Married firstly, before 3 Feb 1379/80, Ellen [surname unknown].
C. Married secondly, before 26 Nov 1396, Maud Mautravers, daughter of Sir John Mautravers of Hook, Dorset & c.
D. Married thirdly, after 1 Nov 1402, Philippe Lovel, daughter of Sir John Lovel, Lord Lovel

The text of the inquisition p.m. for Maud Mautravers cited by CP (Vol IV, p. 376n) make is clear that she d.s.p., with her sister Elizabeth found to be her heir. This makes it evident that the one possible solution would be that Sir John de Dinham's first wife, Ellen, must be the mother of Muriel de Dinham [his heir, Sir John de Dinham, was born before 1407, the son of the third wife - see CP Vol IV, p. 377].

The modified line for this descent would then appear as follows:

..1. Sir John de Dinham, 4th Lord Dinham, m. Muriel de Courtenay [#1 above]

..2. Sir John de Dinham, 5th Lord Dinham, d. 25 Dec 1428, m. 1stly Ellen
________

..3. Muriel de Dinham, d. after 1412, m. Sir Edward Hastings [#2 above]

..4. John Hastings, 9th Lord Hastings, d. 1477, m. Anne Morley [#3 above]


This impacts the MC and PA lines of several known GARDs, noted by PA as including William Farrar, William Asfordby, William Bladen, William Skepper and George and Nehemiah Blakiston. I am therefore sending this information also to Douglas Richardson for his information and consideration as to its impact on the forthcoming MC and PA publications.

Any and all comments and criticisms welcome.

Good luck, and good hunting.

John

Muriel married Edward 8Th Baron HASTINGS, Of Elsing, Sir in 1st Wife. Edward (son of Hugh HASTINGS, Of Elsing, Sir and Anne Le DESPENSER) was born on 21 May 1382 in Fenwick, Doncaster, West Riding Yorkshire, England; died on 6 Jan 1437-1438 in Marshalsea Prison, London, England (For Debts). [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events:

• _UID: 9526E9DB7C474074BEA50826C3D05DB72E26

Notes:

BARONY of DINHAM or DINAUNT ( , 5) not recognized as Baron by CP

Sir JOHN DE DINHAM, of Hartland, Buckland Denham, and Cardinham, son and heir, born 1359 or 1359/60 in co. Devon. When he had proved his age, the King took his homage and fealty, and he had livery of the lands, &c., which he inherited as heir of his mother, 19 February 1380/1. The King again took his homage and fealty, and he had livery of his father's lands, 1 March 1382/3. An action was brought against him by Sir William Asthorpe in the Court of Chivalry to obtain a debt of ?250 a year: that Court not admitting his evidence, he appealed to the King, who appointed commissioners to try the case, 3 June and 6 November 1389. In August 1397 he was accused by the Abbot of Hartland of breaking into the latter's houses, assaulting him and chasing him to his chamber, and ill-treating his servants. The knight was bound over in 1,000 marks to keep the peace, 27 February 1397/8, but was guilty of other assaults on the King's subjects, 5 January 1401/2 and 1 December 1404. He was pardoned, 28 April 1407, on payment of 700 of the 1,000 marks. On 2 February 1400/1 he obtained an exemption for life from being put oil assizes, juries, &c., and from being appointed sheriff, escheator, &c., against his wlll. In September 1402 he and others were accused by the Abbot of Torre of digging up a road at Kingskerswell and assaulting the Abbot's rnen.

He married, 1stly, before 3 February 1379/80, Ellen. She was living -22 September 1387. He married 2ndly, before 26 November 1396, Maud, widow of Piers DE LA MARE, of Offley, Herts (who was aged 13 and more in June 1382, married her before 16 May 1386, and died s.p., and elder daughter and coheir of John MAUTRAVERS, of Hook, Dorset, Crowell, Oxon, &c., by Elizabeth, sister and coheir of William DAUMARLE, and younger daughter of Sir William DAUMARLE, of Middle Chinnock, Somerset, and Woodbury, Devon. She died s.p. about 1 November 1402. He married, 3rdly, Philippe, daughter of Sir John LOVELL, of Titchmarsh, Northants, and Minster Lovell, Oxon [LORD LOVELL], by Alianore, said to be daughter of Sir William La Zouche, of Harringworth, Northants (LORD ZOUCHE]. He died 25 December 1428, aged about 69. His widow's dower was ordered to be assigned, 12 February 1428/9. She married, 2ndly, before 24 March 1428/9, Nicholas BROUGHTON, who was living 5 March 1444/5. She died 15 May 1465. [Complete Peerage IV:374-7, XIV:265, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]